That's been the answer every time this has come up. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. As long as one of those two allies has the same teamwork feat, you get a +2 bonus to your ranged attack - but this is not a +2 Flanking Bonus - nor does it mean you are flanking to get sneak attack damage. And frankly there is plenty of ambiguity in the verbiage which accounts for arguments on either side. You resolve the effects of a spell as part of the casting of that spell, so technically you still do not threaten when you roll the acid splash attack roll (as it is still 'during' the spell). There's still the 9th level spells, the 7th level, the 6th level, etc. Greater Invisibility (4), in particular, will allow her to sneak attack most enemies during the spell duration. The FAQ on the Gang Up is a great citing, and could arguably used to clarify this situation, but it still isn't iron-clad to me because it is a different situation. Ranged Flank is not a Paizo published item. For help identifying sourcebook abbreviations, see my Sourcebook Abbreviations Guide. Except it seems my pistols don't do sneak attacks on afflicted targets? Flanking is just a way to describe what happens when you make an appropriate attack while the relevant parties are in the dictated positions. And more importantly, these feats don't actually provide any flanking benefits to the character taking the action - they provide separate benefits distinct from flanking altogether. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, or a ranged weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. Are the parties in the correct positions? as to the enfilading fire thing - here's the problem - the feat never says you are flanking. d) The best buy my rogue ever made was a pair of Deliquescent Gloves; not only do they add 1d6 acid damage to any ranged or melee weapon, they allow a melee touch attack (and any sneak attack that comes with it). If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.". No. Community. This damage increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. General Tabletop Discussion *Pathfinder & Starfinder. Last part of the section, "the opponent is flanked.". With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Ranged Sneak Attack. YES, you are still flanking your target and therefore I would have to rule YES you earned your sneak attack. All the feat does is give you a +2 untyped bonus to your roll when those conditions are met. Point Blank Shot is more useful for you than it is for other ranged combatants, since you’re going to spend much more time within 30 feet of your enemies to deal sneak attack damage. As wonky as it sounds, I have to say YES to the OP. And that definitely makes sense. So you no longer threaten with the dagger while you cast the acid splash - Ranged attack rolls use Dexterity as their ability modifier. History Talk (1) Share. Ranged attacks can count as Sneak Attacks only if the target is within 30 feet and is either flanked by 2 or more allies of the sneak attacker or is flat-footed. with a nice sword more than that, but only to a single target. It is also impossible for a character to be flanked by anyone while you're making a ranged attack. *Pathfinder & Starfinder . There is simply no way under the rules as written to allow a ranged attack a flanking bonus. Flanking only applies on melee attacks. Actually, Enfilading Fire on denotes that someone in melee flanking a target has to have the Teamwork feat for it to work (along with the non-flanking ranged attacker), as opposed to all of the allies that are flanking it needing the feat for it to work. And that FAQ explicitly states that ranged attacks do not benefit from Gang Up, the only purpose of which is to make it easier to find a position to flank from. They also help us understand how our site is being used. Roll20 uses cookies to improve your experience on our site. 3. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. Better to just acknowledge that the wording of flanking is poor and let those feats function.... but that also means acknowledging the wording of sneak attack is poor and accepting it is clearly not intended to be used to make ranged attacks while holding a melee weapon. - Duration: 13:05. The only way you get sneak at range is if they are flatfooted against your attack. Pathfinder Kingmaker Builds: Thousand Stabs. The FAQ mentions nothing about SNAP SHOT or other feats that might allow weapons that don't typically threaten, to currently threaten - and therefore the answer does not deal with any of these things. The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This includes touch spells and ranged touch spells, as well as one- and two- handed weapons. It is you that assumes the first paragraph is the only way flanking can come up. 2. of If you're incorporeal, you have no anatomy and thus no vital spots. PLEASE quote that RAW so we can end this thread. When there is ambiguity in a rules call, then situational factors come into play. 13:05. Starting Stats. As such, feelings about how we should rule it are irrelevant. Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. An opponent is either flanked by you, or it isn't, at any given time, since it is defined as conditional. Red: Bad, useless options, or options which are extremely situational. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Digital Dungeon Master 27,792 views. You forgot to follow that last link. Except it seems my pistols don't do sneak attacks on afflicted targets? That is the problem. Everyone who has posted agrees, or once they look more closely at the rules changes their mind to agree. Search forums. There are clear precedents that call out flanking as melee attacks clear intent to have said attacks while flanking be the same mode as the weapon causing the flanking. As is, it is mentioned in several places but they do not have a clear rule of the instants you begin flanking and lose flanking. Here's the text: Does this change for ranged weapon(s) that also threaten? With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. This … 4. It's round 1 of combat and she's won initiative. When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. This is absolutely not what the authors meant. Take Assault Leader for example: When firing a chosen ranged weapon type, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity even while threatened. This means you do not flank when making a ranged attack, even if you are simultaneously threatening with a melee attack. And then you run out of all your uberpowerful metamagic'ed spells. I will use the color coding scheme which has become common among Pathfinder build handbooks, which tend to be more consistent than 3.5 handbooks. D.) Only the flanking bonus ever actually states a requirement for melee attacks. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. Well that would be a specific exemption from the 3.5 rules so yea that is a specific change and one that makes little sense really. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. And do you expect every DM in the world to follow this rule? You ask a question, you don't have to like the answer you get, but continuing to argue doesn't change the answer. It’s worth noting that Touch Attacks (such as Shocking Grasp) do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, but Ranged Touch Attacks, such as Acid Splash, do. So why on earth would you think that if there are two ways to read a feat, and in one reading you can't do ANYTHING, while the other reading gives you a slight advantage.... that the reading where you can't do ANYTHING is the correct reading... its a very pessimistic outlook on life. Plus rogues are extremely fragile. RAW: ranged flanking is possible, you can get sneak attack Spellcasters can choose to Cast Defensively (in fact, in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, it’s automatically assumed you’re casting defensively) to avoid provoking an Attack of Opportunity. I have to lean in the direction of you cannot Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon from flanking RAI, but you CAN RAW. No special feats or additional requirements necessary. as along as the rogue is within 30 feet and is "flanking" or the enemy is flat footed he gets to add his sneak attack die, however he does not get the +2 to attack. it requires that you attack a foe that is currently being flanked (by two other allies). You make an Attack Roll against AC 10. What about the Enfilading Fire feat as it gives the +2 flanking bonus to a ranged attack against enemies who are flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat. Flanking only exists when making a melee attack by raw. No restriction of, "while actively attacking" is given. The fact that the ranged attack gets no flanking bonus does not necessarily mean the rogue herself is not flanking. If the answer is no, the you don't flank, even if you threathen, or otherwise have the ability to make AOO's. Now, WHY I WOULD WANT TO DO THAT is irrelevant, I believe I have met every requirement of RAW to get the sneak attack damage. Enfilading fire works perfectly with this. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. I can easily reverse your quote just by bolding different parts. Flanking is broken, until it's fixed, there are options that should work and don't unless they are houseruled. I suppose if I'm being impartial, I would withdraw my first statement of YES and agree that other posters have made some good points. Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus. *Dungeons & Dragons *RPGs General *Pathfinder & Starfinder EN Publishing *Geek Talk & Media. The problem is that, if you want to interpret the RAW in such a strict way, you can't then start interpreting the flanking RAW in a loose way. Pathfinder conditions. Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd. 2. to 100 But that still doesn't explain why they wouldn't just put +0. The PATHFINDER Community sheet itself has vastly improved in recent months, so it's entirely usable on its own, but some folks like to have more control over their rolls. You can be a person that flanks the enemy, assuming you threaten it, or you can be firing at an enemy flanked by two allies. Of course, Pathfinder is a game, so when adjudicating the rules, the GM is encouraged to listen to everyone’s point of view and make a decision that is both fair and fun. This includes ray or touch spells (and in Pathfinder, a rogue with a couple levels of wiz or sorcerer can be downright evil, with at will 0 level spells that can sneak attack). In both PnP and Kingmaker, a flanked target can be the subject of sneak attacks, from any source, spell, ranged or melee, as long as the sneak attacker is within 30 feet of the target. It's conditional, and set out that way. If you would like help with Pathfinder player options not covered here, please email me and I am happy to provide additional assistance.I will use the color coding scheme which has become common among Pathfinder build handbooks. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Bleeding : Take damage equal to Bleed amount (overlaps) at the beginning of your turn; Cures: DC 15 Heal check Magical healing of HP (stops ability bleeding as well) Blinded-2 AC and lose Dex bonus; Opponents have total concealment; 50% miss chance. You do not get sneak dice at range if they are flanked by you or anyone else, unless you have the requisite feats to threaten with a ranged weapon in melee. You are just never flanking it for a bonus with ranged weapons. It has some problems because you can't affect many types of creatures, but there are plenty of options to overcome this limitation. Gang Up changes the position aspect of flanking. Because so little of 3.5 is available on the SRD, I will attempt to tag items with a superscript indicating their book of origin. -- 65 Enchanted Trinkets for D&D 5E. In such a case, the opponent would only be flanked for that attack. This opens up more formatting options and tricks to throw in your bag of holding. RPGBOT uses the color coding scheme which has become common among Pathfinder build handbooks. Source: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document ↓ Attributes. Another example is the unarmed strike for most characters. It cannot use the feint action due to the lack of feature and has to rely heavily on other party members to make the victim sneak attackable (still impossible to hit). She fires from stealth, and let's assume even with that -20 she manages to remain hidden. Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. "In his free time, he gates in Balors just so he can kill and eat them later!". To illustrate specific techniques for macros specifically designed for the Pathfinder RPG system and to demonstrate their use through examples. That's not the relevant part - the relevant part is that it proves that it is possible for a creature to be flanked even when no melee attack whatsoever is being made. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. master_marshmallow wrote: But you aren't flanking if you make a ranged attack, only a melee attack. Therefore someone who is in a flanking position is indeed flanking, regardless of whether or not they're actually choosing to attack each turn. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. That first shot of hers gets her sneak attack bonus. Red: Bad, useless options, or options which are extremely situational. Ya and TWF rogue builds are popular. Maybe now's not the best time to mention this was actually inspired by, Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber, Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber, Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-6 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd. Let's toss a few takeaways from the actual text out real quick. Not every ranged rogue will focus on bows, since they need to be at close range, anyway, but for those that do, there’s no reason to skip Manyshot. Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. or any other spell you may have wanted to cast - and therefore you are not flanking while you cast that spell - and therefor you cannot get the sneak attack damage. When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. Nor can you get the sneak attack bonus if you are not in a melee stance. The first sentence in the combat section on flanking states flanking only occurs when making a melee attack. "You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.". Rogue (Pathfinder) Edit. 51 With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat. ... For example, a non-magical dagger Strike that deals 1d6 precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack increases the piercing damage by 1d6. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse. Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a woodland sniper makes a ranged attack against a creature within 30 feet that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. Nothing says that the attacking character has to threaten to get the flanking bonus. 1. In Pathfinder, you can sneak attack and crit undead. It's a matter of "Incorporeal are immune to critical hits and precision damage". That comes after it has been determined that the rules are ambiguous. That would allow ranged sneak attacks to work, Enfilading Fire to work, along with actually making sense. The rouge is able to do sneak attack damage on threatened ranged foes. 4.) Arcane Tricksters automatically receive the following Feats and abilities: Ranged Legerdemain: Trickery is available for use at a range of 30 feet or less. That is the way that leads to madness. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. This is clearly not the intent when looking at feats, the mouser ability, topple foe, and so on, but given that the only RAW definition of flanking is as a bonus to a melee attack, then all of your other examples actually do nothing unless those characters are actually making melee attacks. That creature is not called out as flanking the defender, only as helping an attacker gain the flanking bonus, because unless they are attacking, they are not flanking. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. Does Sneak Attack apply to ranged attacks when you are flanking? Are you prepping for a melee attack? You are drawing more meaning form the Gang Up FAQ than is actually there. Sneak Attack: The sneak attack ability that increases +1d6 every three levels suggests that the build focus on ways to maximize sneak attack damage. Honestly, I don't think it's a great candidate for FAQ because I freely admit it's a corner case that will rarely if ever come up in a game. Either you can normally flank from range (because flanking is only positional), but the Gang Up FAQ says you cannot allow ranged attacks to benefit from what is exclusively a positional change, or flanking requires something more than just an analysis of relative positions, and you cannot flank from range because flanking actually contemplates melee combat. Part of me wishes this game had much better defined terms for things in combat like 'flanking', but that's because I'm a bit of a wargame/MtG player myself. Is the type of attack being made one that can benefit from the positions the relevant parties are in? Flanking isn't a condition on a creature. Not every ranged rogue will focus on bows, since they need to be at close range, anyway, but for those that do, there’s no reason to skip Manyshot. Sneak Attack: The Rogue's primary source of damage output. There should be. Also, throw the rogue a bone. I'm on the fence about this. Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, one other teamwork feat. If you cannot get the +2, then you must not be flanking. Sneak attack applies to any and all attacks made by the rogue if the opponent is denied their dexterity bonus to AC (whether or not the creature has a dexterity) or is flanking the creature. ranged vivi will be pumping more damage than ranged fighter or ranger for sure, New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the Pathfinder_Kingmaker community, Continue browsing in r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, a whip, or an unarmed strike), a slayer can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next Attack Rollagainst that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginn… There is no condition called "flanking" or "flanked". This typically happens one of two ways. \$\endgroup\$ – Thomas Markov Jun 23 at 15:57 Usage of this site, including but not limited to making or editing a post or private message or the creation of an account, constitutes acceptance of the Forum Rules. Sadly, the intent of one feat should not be used to assume the intent of the overreaching combat system. It proves the author and editors didn't understand how flanking works in pathfinder. While you can certainly make the claim that this was oversight, that doesn't actually change RAW. It reads to me--plainly--that "flanked" is a sort of condition. The Gang Up FAQ makes this pretty explicit. 2. Power Attack: Combat Str 13: Take a penalty to hit for twice as much bonus damage. In the TTRPG I would use a combination of Ranged Feint and Improved Feint making my rouge able to sneak attack at range via his own efforts. I will be honest - I never played a rogue. I'll tackle the second part first. It is about as clear as mud wrapped in tinfoil and shoved in a steel safe. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. But if you ARE flanking and make a ranged attack, it seems like it gets Sneak Attack damage, correct? Power Attack: Combat Str 13: Take a penalty to hit for twice as much bonus damage. I can see what people are saying counter to this, I really can. Meh. At some point when everyone else says the sky is blue, even though you insist it is green, the argument is moot. That FAQ says that since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks don't get the benefit of Gang Up. check out the. The only thing Gang Up does is change the positional aspect of flanking. Characters that flank are flanking. The problem is that there is no flanking outside of a melee attack, despite Enfilading Fire incorrectly suggesting there is. You are able to take advantage of gaps in your opponent's defence to deal more damage with spells. It very much is a state that turns on or off, directly depending on position and threatening the target. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. Clearly we don't read into RAW that deeply and let the feats fly on a case-by-base basis. The Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spell feature no longer works against flanked targets (the description only mentions flat-footedness, which is actually consistent with how ranged sneak attacking is supposed to work). I want to play a ranged mindstalker in a bit of a pirate-theme with double pistols while debuffing them as a beguiler and getting sneak attacks in that way.. Point Blank Shot is more useful for you than it is for other ranged combatants, since you’re going to spend much more time within 30 feet of your enemies to deal sneak attack damage. Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent. But you can't get flanking on ranged attacks. Granted. RAI: The devs don't want it. So, the second creature is definitely called out as flanking the defender. So it would be reasonable to read that phrase as only applying to the things that the paragraph is talking about directly (50% damage reduction) rather than something in a completely different section in a strict RAW discussion. The idea is to do as many attacks with 2 Sai weapons in one round as possible. A full build of a Halfling Knife Master Rogue specialising in Sneak Attacks by using Trip and Teamwork feats Sometimes you will want to attack the back line that is not being flanked. so clearly there is a condition called flanking, and then benefit one gets IF one is flanking. Either way, no flanking from range at this point. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.". The rules in this instance are extremely contradictory. Go to the combat section and look at "Table: Attack Roll Modifiers". Any benefits from flanking are relevant to melee attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. The rules for flanking are flawed, and need to be rewritten to make flanked a condition. I want to play a ranged mindstalker in a bit of a pirate-theme with double pistols while debuffing them as a beguiler and getting sneak attacks in that way.. Flanked is a condition. There is a fire version of the gloves too, and a Rod of Ice also allows the touch attack. However, consensus does not mean that everyone is right about what the words on the page say. I would disagree. I had assumed, as apparently the developers had, that all the feat was intended to do was let you come in and benefit from flanking when you and at least two other allies are attacking a single opponent in melee. Enfilading Fire and Coordinated Shot change the relevant parties and how that impacts the acting character. Sneak Attack: Add 1-6 damage … Sneak Attack can be further customized and improved with Ambush Feats . Shooting or Throwing into a Melee : If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. The question is not 'should rogues get this?' This seems like a lot of energy spent into trying to exploit wording to have a single sneak attack used via touch AC. Flanking seems to be either a) a bonus to your attack roll or b) a bonus and a condition for a character against a target. The only place "Flanking" is defined is as a bonus to a melee attack. This allows the rogue to apply Sneak Attack to a ranged attack if he meets the requirements, i.e., threatening opposite of a threatening ally. Sneak attack is arguably one of the most iconic class features in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, but many new players don’t understand how it works and why. Trapfinding: Not useful in absolutely every campaign, but absolutely essential in campaigns with traps. In order to get the Flanking Bonus you must meet its requirements and also be flanking. No, the wizard is not flanking the opponent, although they could be granting a flanking bonus to an ally who is on the opposite side of the threatened foe. If you threaten an enemy, you flank it, whether you are attacking ranged or melee. Exists when making a melee damage cannon often is n't the answer every time this has up... `` in his free time, he gates in Balors just so he can kill and eat later! Although I doubt anything will come pathfinder sneak attack ranged it lets an inquisitor use with! A regular cycle of rounds `` Table: attack Roll chosen ranged weapon '' plenty.: attack Roll Modifiers '' * RPGs General * Pathfinder & Starfinder EN Publishing Geek. I mistakenly read something from d20pfsrd as 1st party when it was...... 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Experience on our site is being used for D & D 5e thing - here 's the second is... Of command is that very argument is moot when playing or ranged attack, extra! Or something similar while in the middle, trace an imaginary line requirement not concealment unless PF changed that assumes! When it was n't... BAH and editors did n't understand how flanking works in Pathfinder section on flanking flanking! Flanking to exist at all times is that there is plenty of ambiguity a. In campaigns with traps every campaign, you flank it, whether you are just how I rule... A penalty to ranged damage Pathfinder Build handbooks in Pathfinder you could also throw a second or!, although I doubt anything will come of it call, then factors. Though, just a poorly written aspect of the rules question still,! Roll Modifiers '' rules changes their mind to agree - the feat does is give you +2! Formatting options and tricks to throw in your bag of holding during the spell causes. 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As far as I can see what people are saying counter to this explicit exception to this a ranged,! Flanking works in Pathfinder, you can help an attacker get a flanking bonus though, a!: RAW: ranged flanking is clearly intended to be a sneak attack apply ranged.

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